Scots DO Want Brexit. Stop Lying!

Comment: 

Click here to read a news report dated 13 May, 2019, which includes a video clip of a Scotsman, member of a BBC TV audience, pointing out that the one million plus Scots who voted to leave the EU are being “airbrushed” out of the debate.  He notes that more Scots voted to leave the  EU than voted for the SNP in the last General Election.  In fact, half of the Scottish population didn’t vote at all, so the 62% figure bandied about represents only that proportion of half of the population who bothered to vote.  Yet, we hear the mantra “Scotland voted to remain” trotted out week after week in the Westminster Parliament by SNP MPs, and “Scotland won’t be dragged out of the EU against our will” – “dragged” a clever vocable, repeated over and over again, to give the impression of oppression. 

This is dishonest in the extreme.  Still, how many Catholics think nothing of voting for dishonest politicians, since, they would argue, “everybody lies”…  Or, at the very least, “all politicians lie”.

Is that true?  DOES “everybody lie” … DO  all politicians lie?  And, if so, what can be done about it?   Do priests need to preach more about the basics among the Ten Commandments, to drive home the gravity of lying?  And surely – even if you are a Scot who voted to remain in the EU –  surely you disapprove of the way, for three years now, the “remain” politicians in Scotland have perpetuated the falsehood that “Scotland voted to remain” … or maybe not – share your thoughts!  

14 responses

  1. At one time I would have said yes, all politicians lie, but I’ve been listening to Nigel Farage on YouTube quite a bit and I tend to think he is straightforward, ready to admit a mistake, which is itself unusual in politicians. He’s now saying he won’t ever use the word “manifesto” because people associate that with “lie” – so true!

    The problem is, he is so hated by the rest of the politicians, and too many people fall for the propaganda against him, that it’s hard for him to shake off the labels he’s been given, such as “racist”, “extremist” and so on. It will be interesting to see how he gets on in the EU elections. I’m hoping the polls showing him surging ahead, are right. It will send a clear message to the two main parties, if his candidates romp home.

  2. I think we’d be hard pushed to say, hand on heart, that we’ve never voted for a politician who lies! I’ve also heard people (not many, admittedly) saying that they think “everybody lies”. I find that incredible. Catholics who repeatedly lie, need to think about the “firm purpose of amendment” bit when they go to Confession.

    That’s good that the facts about the Scottish vote are getting aired in the media – it’s been a long three years listening to the SNP talking as if the whole of Scotland voted to remain.

  3. I was tempted to post, at first, “Are all politicians liars? Is the Pope Catholic?” but on second thought I decided that wasn’t such a good analogy…

    Since we are all human, and the vast majority of humans have told a lie at some point in their lives, I would have to say that almost all politicians, since they are all human, lie for various reasons.

    But that sets up another point: the crisis in the Church has exposed numerous prelates and priests (and religious), including the present Pope, as liars. Deliberate liars, not accidental liars; not liars who are trying to protect someone (i.e. doing evil for a good end), but liars who are trying to conceal a fact that is harmful to the Faith and to the Church. In fact, the entire Vatican II project is a despicable structure of lies, from top to bottom, which has only compounded itself, breeding more lies with every succeeding pontificate.

    I found a couple of interesting articles on lying. One on catholic.com, from which this excerpt:

    One of the stronger philosophical traditions, endorsed by Aquinas and discussed by Augustine, posits that lying is “deliberately speaking against one’s own mind.” (Throughout this discussion, “speaking” means any sort of communication.) This was the most common definition among the scholastics, and it became a staple of theological manuals by the first part of the 20th century. As Fr. John Hardon puts it in the Modern Catholic Dictionary, “When a person tells a lie, he or she deliberately says something that is contrary to what is on that person’s mind; there is a real opposition between what one says and what one thinks” (an opposition that cannot be merely apparent, explained by ignorance or misstatement).

    The first thing to notice is that this definition emphasizes the moral intentionality of lying; the truth itself is not necessarily contradicted. If a person thinks something is true and deliberately states something to the contrary, he has incurred the moral guilt of lying. While this may be so subjectively, it leaves open the possibility that such a person, believing a falsehood, could actually speak the truth by speaking against his own mind.

    Because this definition is divorced from the objective truth or falsity of the statement, many philosophers and theologians have sought an alternative definition. Some have proposed that the proper definition of “lying” is “speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” In the early 20th century, the article on “Lying” in the highly-regarded Catholic Encyclopedia dismissed this definition (also traceable to Augustine) as a new and minor opinion which raised more problems than it solved. By the late 20th century, however, it was precisely this definition that made it into the Catechism of the Catholic Church (see CCC 2482). https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-lying-ever-right.

    The other is the Encyclopedia article itself, cited above, on lying: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm

    • RCA Victor,

      I only came in to close the Fatima thread, and so am already late for my nightly pubbing and clubbing appointment with fun, so I won’t visit your links right now. Suffice to say, being a simple gal, it seems to me that the only meaningful definition of lying has to be, speaking knowingly and deliberately against objective truth. If you are deliberately trying to mislead, but, as Murphy’s Law would have it, you inadvertently speak the truth, that’s down to your lucky stars 😀

      Still, I reserve the right to reconsider or outright reverse this opinion once I’ve … well… thought about it 😀

  4. Fidelis,

    I couldn’t agree more. I detest lies. I try my best never to lie because one lie is bad enough, but it always leads to another. I remember years ago running late for work. I planned to tell my boss that there had been an accident on the motorway. However, it then occured to me that he would ask me questions about what had happened, where it had happened, how many cars were involved etc. It would lead to one lie after another.

    I’m not saying I never lie. Sometimes I tell very small lies without thinking. It usually involves saying something like, “I don’t know” when I actually do know. However, if I that I always try to correct myself.

    Regarding the claim that “Scotland voted Remain” this is most certainly a lie. Nicola Sturgeon often says that 62% of Scots voted to Remain. However, the turnout was only 67%. 33% of Scots didn’t bother to vote, so I don’t think they can be classed as Remain. Only 42% of Scots eligible to vote voted Remain.

    • Petrus,

      I try my best never to lie because one lie is bad enough, but it always leads to another.

      That is an excellent point and a great learning point for children.

      A lie can often seem like a simple and easy means of dealing with a situation, but -as you say – it always leads to another.

      A good analogy I think is to consider the ripples in water which are made if you drop a pebble into a pond. The initial splash is like the first lie, and then the subsequent ripples – constantly expanding and more numerous – are the subsequent lies needs to shore up the first.

      You are also right that we can lie easily and almost without thinking. Sometimes I have caught myself saying something and then immediately thinking “why did I say that?”.

      • I agree about not lying, of course, but sometimes it’s awkward if someone is – for example – asking your opinion about something they are wearing. If I don’t like it, it’s difficult to say that but if I say I do, when I don’t am I lying – given that even white lies are lies.

        • Margaret Mary,

          Nobody needs to lie in that situation. Even basic communication skills should help us to get out of praising the garment, without lying. When I’ve been asked (usually by a sister, LOL!) I just say that she can get away with wearing anything, with her looks, and that makes us all laugh! She takes it that I like her new coat or whatever it is, LOL!

          • Fidelis,

            I agree. Your example about your sister reminded me of an incident from my youth, just after my 21st birthday (WHAT a memory!) when I had been given a gift of a pendant that was not at all to my taste. It was a kind of modernised Celtic cross design, set in an intricate design, on a long chain, and not something I would have chosen, not least because it was a very dark item. However, a friend told me at the time that she had accompanied the male friend “James” who purchased it, to help him. He got his eye on it and thought it beautiful (!) and nothing she could say would dissuade him. So, I thanked him profusely for his gift and put it in a drawer!

            Then I decided to wear it on one occasion, probably feeling guilty at seeming non-appreciative, and made the fatal mistake of asking an acquaintance (never would I consider her a friend) if she liked it. I was struggling to make conversation with her and asked her this as an opening to telling her the story of my friend’s shopping spree with “James” because it was quite comical in the telling. There’s lots that I’ve omitted above, due to lack of time… Never got to tell her because she looked at it with upturned nose and said rudely that it wasn’t to HER taste, before moving away.

            Now, some would admire her honesty and say it was much better to be bluntly truthful than to lie. However, that’s a false dichotomy.

            As you point out, the choice isn’t between telling a lie or telling the truth, but about employing communication skills. Not a lot of people can boast of those, I’m finding out, these days.

            The colour of the “cross” on the pendant was a pretty pale green, and there was an intricate design around the cross, which are the two features which I praised when “James” gave me the gift. What I didn’t like about it was that it was on a long chain, dark materials and really, generally, “not my style”. “James” was quite pleased that I liked the pretty shade of green and the intricate design – he never knew that it just wasn’t my style and that I seldom wore it!

            There’s never any excuse for bad manners and certainly the claim to being “honest” isn’t the exception.

  5. more Scots voted to leave the EU than voted for the SNP in the last General Election.

    Wow, l was not aware of that stat: it shows up Nicola Sturgeons lies, spin and brass neck all the more.

    I am very glad this gentlemen got to air his view on the BBC, he is right that Brexit-voting Scots are typically overlooked.

    If candidates are available, i would expect Scotland to return at least 1 or 2 Brexit Party MEPs.

    • Gabriel Syme

      I didn’t know that either about more Scots voting to leave the EU than voted for the SNP – they’ll be furious that that cat has got out of the bag.

    • Gabriel Syme,

      It is shocking in the extreme, that the SNP politicians keep repeating the lie that “Scotland voted to remain” when they know perfectly well the truth about the statistics. When I quoted them to an MSP recently, he acknowledged immediately that I was right – so they know, but they continue to mislead people into believing that the entire population of Scotland, more or less, voted to remain.

      I will be putting my cross at the candidate for The Brexit Party in the EU election – no question about it.

  6. I’ve just been watching this interview with Nigel Farage and members of his audience after a rally. He does make a refreshing change with his straight answers.

  7. Unfortunately, one of the Brexit Party candidates for Scotland in the EU elections is a “married” gay man (obviously married to another gay man).

    I’m thinking it would be OK to vote for him anyway because the only policy of the Brexit Party is exiting the EU, so I wouldn’t be voting in someone on any other policy.

    I hope I’m right?

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