Orthodox Vs Traditional Faith…

 

Catholics will please God by holding to true beliefs and correct moral norms.   The Mass you attend is secondary…

Editor, Catholic Truth writes…

I keep finding myself in conversations with diocesan Catholics – defined simply as those who attend the new Mass  – who consider that being orthodox in doctrine and morals is the most important thing today, not which Mass we attend.  The point is always made that, for those brought up in the new Mass, with no alternative, it’s all they have, and therefore, surely the most important thing is to be wholly orthodox, stick to right beliefs and moral norms.  When I ask if they go along with ecumenical events, I get a variety of responses tolerant of through to positive about ecumenical activities. To date, I’ve never met with an outright denunciation of ecumenism. 

Ditto, these Catholics seldom denounce the false apparitions at Medjugorje, instead focusing on the adherents in their circles who have experienced “conversions” and vocations, including priestly ordinations.  All wonderful people. 

I’m told too, that “traditionalists” need to stop talking so much about the Mass and focus on God more.  Don’t go on the “attack” in conversation with diocesan Catholics right away, to ask if X attends the old or new Mass – speak about God first.

My answers to the above have not been successful in changing hearts and minds Help!

29 responses

  1. Editor,

    This issue always makes me think of “the law of prayer is the law of belief” maxim. If someone prefers the New Mass, then I think it shows they don’t understand the Faith.

    That’s why I think Education is crucial. The newsletter and blog are vital ways for the laity to exercise their Confirmation duty.

    As to those who fail to act when the truth is presented to them, I guess they are examples of the good seed falling on the rock.

    • Petrus,

      Thank you for your comments about the newsletter and blog and thank you, too for your excellent contributions to both. Over the years I’ve found that perseverance is a virtue in short supply, so thank you for yours!

      • Editor,

        It truly is a mystery why some people “get it” and some don’t. Undoubtedly there are good Catholics in the land of Novus Ordo parishes. I’ve had many conversations with them and they will just not entertain leaving their parishes. A mystery indeed!

        • Petrus, if evangelization was easy the entire world would profess the traditional Catholic faith already. I think its meant to be more like carrying a Cross.

          • Deacon Augustine,

            I think the problem is the majority of the Church has given up evangelisation! The so-called “New Evangelisation” is not Evangelisation at all!

            To make matters worse, when modern Catholics experience authentic Evangelisation we get comments like “Well, Pope Francis doesn’t tell us that” or “I think I will stick with the Pope”. Pope Francis is an anti-evangelist!

  2. I had the good fortune last week to assist at a diocesan Mass which was the TLM – would that it were so every week!

    The reality for most Catholics, however, is that they still do not have access to the TLM, not to mention all the other sacraments in the old rites. But just because the Church in the form of her miscreant clergy cannot/will not provide access to the traditional Mass, that does not mean that Catholics should abandon orthodox faith and morals.

    I am certain that it would be much easier to maintain orthodoxy in faith and morals if one had access to a fully traditional sacramental and devotional life. But in their absence or even in their intermittent provision, the words which inspired St Augustine’s conversion should apply: “Tolle lege!” God has provided us with the internet as a tool so that anybody who is literate can learn what the Faith is and how it should be lived.

    As I said to a good orthodox priest last week, I have prayed for the TLM to return to my parish and I have asked for it to return – I even have the old communion rails hidden safely where they cannot be destroyed in the hope that one day it will return – but, like the laity, a deacon must put up with what his father in God is willing or able to give him. Hey, ho – priests come and priests go.

    Despite the fact that I normally have to suffer through the N.O., I have indeed denounced “ecumenism” as it is perpetrated in its modern form and that at the local “ecumenical” gathering of clergy and lay representatives. The Anglicans were shocked, the Methodist minister giggled, and the Independent Presbyterian minister gave a hearty “Amen”.

    Re the “medge-heads”, “denounced” is a very strong word when it comes to warning people off this dangerous phenomenon. Ideally one wants to help them extract themselves from it without damaging their love for Our Lady and Our Lord.

    • Deacon Augustine,

      Your comment has lifted my spirits considerably. Not least your final two paragraphs! I laughed (literally, out loud) at your description of the ecumenical gathering: “The Anglicans were shocked, the Methodist minister giggled, and the Independent Presbyterian minister gave a hearty “Amen”. Priceless.

      So, as they say down south in your fair part of the world, well done,YOU! (which reminds me, where were you when we were celebrating the Feast of your patron saint yesterday?!*)

      The people who puzzle me most, though, are those with whom I grew up and befriended through our membership of the Legion of Mary. What is now termed “the old rite” was the only Mass on offer and – as I recently pointed out to one of said friends from my youth – I don’t remember anyone complaining about it or wishing we had a vernacular Mass. She admitted the truth of this, but quickly followed the admission with the usual assertion that it’s better now that we “understand it”. Well, I’m just astounded that nobody, ever, EVER said they didn’t understand the Mass in all the years we were attending it, prior to the introduction of the new Mass. I have a few stories like this, but, hey, you’re on side, so no point pushing at an open door…

      I do wonder, though, Deacon Augustine, if you are unusual in that you can see clearly that ecumenism and Medjugorje are off the wall and not Catholic. You have the desire for the old Faith in its fullness, so I wonder how many others among those in the pews today, really do hold to fully orthodox beliefs and morals. One of my friends who is fairly active in her parish, astonished me some time ago by her attitude to transgenderism, responding to my open-mouthed amazement by asking if I’d ever met any… Later I thought I should have pointed out that, no, never met a transgender but (through Legion work some years ago) I DID meet a murderer, and although a very nice guy, I really don’t recommend the lifestyle.

      Anyway, I agree that God provides and He is providing, no doubt about it, for those of good will in this present crisis. Christ is not bound by His sacraments, so we can be confident that He will see everyone through this terrible time of crisis.

      It’s important, however to reflect on the fact, readers one and all, that we have a duty to educate ourselves in the Faith – particularly in this time of crisis – because it really cannot please God for us to encourage the false teaching that one religion (or one “denomination”) is as good as another. And as Petrus points out above, the law of prayer is the law of belief” – what we hear/read/say in prayer (at Mass) indicates our doctrinal beliefs. As one old Middlesbrough priest once said to me: “the prayers of the old Mass are like hedges protecting the doctrine”. Exactly.

      Again thank you for that insightful (and entertaining!) comment. We must pray that “the reality for most Catholics” of which you speak, changes. And soon!

      • editor: “so I wonder how many others among those in the pews today, really do hold to fully orthodox beliefs and morals.”

        Fr John Hardon once said that when Catholics start using contraception they will lose the Faith. I believe he was right and peoples’ attitude to contraception is a key indicator of whether they are orthodox or not. Wherever I find support for Humanae vitae, I generally find openness towards or positive desire for the old Mass too.

        Once people corrupt their marriages with contraception they have already given themselves over into Satan’s power and they will happily believe anything which justifies their choice for sin. They are easy meat to him once he has control of them and he has no problem manipulating his toys as agents of destruction. “All heresy begins below the belt” as the old idiom goes…

        On that basis I would say that the numbers in the pews who hold fully orthodox beliefs and morals is somewhere between 5 and 20% – depending on the location and the clergy who serve them. As 85% of Catholics in this country don’t even manage to venture into the pews for a N.O. Mass, the numbers are very small indeed. Your average parish is a microcosm of an ecumenical mess of pottage with the occasional Catholic swimming against the tide in there.

        Sorry to have missed the patronal celebration – life has been somewhat hectic recently. No rest for the wicked! 😉

        • Deacon Augustine,

          Yes, I do believe there’s something in what you say about contraception – such persistence in grave, objectively mortal sin does, of course, dull the conscience and lead to spiritual blindness, so that is very likely one explanation of why so many have lost the Faith.

          This evening, I had a telephone call from a reader in Glasgow who is outraged at a double page spread article in the Scottish Catholic Observer (SCO) written by Mgr John McIntyre, savagely attacking the Traditional Latin Mass. It’s not published online – “exclusive to the print copy” suggesting a desperate plea for help to survive, since so few read the rag. As our reader said, only “traditionalists” are likely to go to the bother of purchasing a copy to read such an article. Not me. I wouldn’t give them a halfpenny for it. Indeed, some time ago, I asked said reader to stop giving me the print copy. No point. I know that the Scots bishops and clergy have largely lost the Faith, and the few who are hanging on to some of it have fallen silent. As our reader said, “Where is the St Athanasius of our times?”

          Absent such a model bishop, then, Mgr McIntyre gets away with publishing his ignorant rubbish: the bishops and clergy won’t object, and those of us who would, don’t get our letters published, so I’m not wasting my time reading the SCO (or Herald Scotland) baloney.

          I did promise to highlight the article here, just to demonstrate that hatred of the old Mass is alive and well and kicking in Scotland.

          And the gravity of that state of affairs should hit home, folks, when we recall what the American Bishop (Olmstead) said on the subject: “To be indifferent to the old Mass is one thing” Bishop Olmstead said, “To hate it comes straight from Hell”.

          By “that state of affairs”, I mean, of course the state of the souls of the Scottish Bishops who remain silent when the Mass which nourished the saints and martyrs is mindlessly and savagely attacked in a so-called publication by one of their priests.

          Evil. Utterly evil.

  3. Deacon Augustine,

    I agree – the numbers in the pews are very low indeed, and we know that because of all the parishes either closing or merging. One priest is now in charge of several parishes, so how they are going to keep going, is something to think about. I think there’ll be plenty of burn out in the months and years go come.

    • I also agree with the Deacon. Very few Catholics are attending Mass these days, let alone keeping the moral law (birth control)/

  4. “Parishes merging”. I suspect this is all part of the plan for the laity to “take over” and run parishes a la Eucharist Services shenanigans..

  5. I know a number of parents who home-school in order to make sure that their children do, at least receive orthodoxy in teaching about Catholic doctrine and morals. Yet, today in Parliament, during Prime Minister’s Questions, a Conservative MP asked the PM to take measures to make sure the home-schooled pupils are receiving “an appropriate education”. He didn’t say what that means, and neither did she when she assured him that the department for education was looking at this issue. I think we’re in for more Big Brother laws.

    Does anyone know of any organisation that fights for the rights of home-schoolers in the UK?

  6. I’ve just checked YouTube and found today’s PMQs – if you scroll to 34.12 you will see the MP who raises the issue of homeschooling and the PM’s response.

    As far as I know, only the Christian Institute is likely to support home-schooling parents. Shocking that there is no Catholic support – as far as I know.

    • “This is an issue the Secretary of State for Education is looking at” sounds ominous. The correct answer should have been, “Thos government believes that parents have the right to educate their children in whichever way they see fit.”

      • Petrus,

        “Ominous” is exactly the word that came to mind as I listened to both the question and answer.

        I sometimes see PMQs and clearly the questions are planted or prepared in advance, albeit giving the impression of spontaneity.

        My considered view, then, of the entire “democratic” set up in the UK is that the whole thing is a pretence – with “ominous” thrown in for good measure, because I don’t see “wish to ensure my child has an orthodox Catholic education” going down too well.

        My advice to parents seeking to home-school is always to downplay the religious and moral aspects and instead, emphasise legitimate concerns about providing a solid academic education, tailored to your children’s needs. If you can, further, point to a good programme (e.g. Seton Home Study) and demonstrate that there are professional teachers on hand, online tutorials and sound assessment programmes etc in place, there’s not a lot they can do about it. Except seethe!

          • St Miguel,

            I was alerted to a discussion on the Kaye Adams show, BBC Radio Scotland this morning, on the subject of home-schooling. I did tune in for the last few minutes, during which I heard two people speaking very positively of their experience of home-schooling, so for those who would like to hear it, you can use the Listen Again facility on the BBC Radio Scotland website, select Kaye Adams, today’s date.

            I’m avoiding the BBC as much as possible after that horrendous homosexual propaganda video, so I’m not going to listen. I felt obliged to tune in for a few minutes, in gratitude to the friend who had texted me about the show – it turned out to be the end of that segment anyway, so presumably the discussion began at 9am when the show starts, and finished at 10am – it was the few minutes before the clock struck ten, that I heard. One male, one female, both very positive about homeschooling versus “normal” schooling.

            • And they parents in total control of WHAT is being taught as in ‘relationships’…..next BIGGIE as regards home schooling.

              HOW would the so called Named Person handle that one!?

              Would three children being home schooled be appointed three separate Named Persons ?

              I can imagine an interfering busybody being ‘beeling’ about the nerve of parents home schooling.

              BTW The named person caper has went quiet again…wonder if it is being finally buried?

              • St Miguel,

                You’re not understanding the Named Person scheme.

                Every child in Scotland WILL be given their own individual Named Person – and that includes children in the womb. From conception until 18 years, the child will have a State appointed Named Person. Chilling eh?

                And no, it’s not “gone quiet” – I have recently heard about a mother-to-be who has been contacted by her child’s Named Person. I mean her child-in-the womb’s Named Person. Her 10 year old son has his own NP.

                It’s supposedly not being rolled out until August (I think) but they’re rolling it out on the quiet, anyway, in the name of NHS provision, I’m told.

                • How would they police the parents of children who happen to be regularly move all over the UK for example?.How would that work for children who move schools if parents are military or socially mobile, who keep changing jobs and may move south of the border from time to time? This is fundamentally flawed.
                  Also what are the Scottish version of HE Nichols saying now as I have lost the drift on this baloney?

                • Oh so its a CHILD in the womb then….funny as I thought it was only a potential human being.

  7. It seems to me that this modern Catholic argument has neither cart nor horse to put first, for the following reasons:

    1. The Traditional Mass teaches the true, orthodox Faith. The new Mass undermines or destroys it. It is utter hypocrisy, or complete ignorance, or both, to claim an interest in preserving orthodoxy, and then claim that attending a liturgy which abandons God isn’t important.

    2. All well and good to adhere to orthodoxy when there is no TLM available, but it is laughable to hope that orthodoxy can be found in the typical Novus Ordo parish, when, in fact, orthodoxy is regularly either punished or frowned upon (not to mention, insulted by the Pope), esp. if the orthodox layman tries to protest against some heretical activity or sermon or event. The typical NO parish, as we’ve chronicled here time and time again, is a breeding ground for heresy and corrupt priests. Where does that leave the modern Catholic who wishes to preserve his Faith? He has to do it on his own, without the support of his parish or his PP…or his bishop. Therefore, in a sense, the CT blog becomes his parish, if he can use it to nourish his faith.

    3. Finally, traditionalists talk about the Traditional Mass precisely because it “focuses on God more.” What does the NO focus on? Man.

    It should be relatively easy to stump people who make the claims that Editor cites, but I doubt whether they will appreciate being stumped. At least it might make them think – and the use of reason can’t be a bad thing in undoing the French Revolution of the Church. In fact, it is crucial.

    Perhaps this will wake a few people up:
    https://www.gloria.tv/video/zhvEjGegsZhu1WVbciqaPkjFW

    Juicy excerpt: “Pope Francis was elected to carry out a – quote – “reform in the Lutheran sense”. According to Livi, in the new Lutheran church-to-come the pope, the bishops and the priests will not be anymore an expression of the sacred but of politics.”

    (Or, much more likely than waking a few up, many who are completely conditioned to accept 50 years of indifferentism will actually think this is a positive development.)

  8. RCA Victor

    Below, one of the comments on the Gloria TV site underneath the video reveals the danger inherent in the report… One commentator writes:

    “What this disclosure suggests is that the election of Pope Francis was fraudulent. Consequently, he is an anti-pope and Pope Benedict is still Pope just as Ann Barnhardt has claimed.

    Since we know that there will not BE a “new Lutheran church-to-come” and that any evil plans to overthrow Christ’s Church in that way will not succeed, I prefer, as you know, to by-pass the entire speculative discussion about the conclave. We know that wheeling and dealing goes on prior to conclaves, and that even without such wheeling and dealing there is no guarantee that the cardinals will elect a good pope, so I see the likes of that news report serving only to add confusion to the prevailing chaos. Far from “waking up a few people”, given my own experience/friendships with diocesan priests and Catholics, it’s more likely to confirm them in their opinion that we are “for the birds”, extremists, to put it mildly.

    Monsignor Livi would be well advised to spend his time more fruitfully in trying to get his brother priests at Opus Dei to join the fight for the restoration of the Faith. Opus Dei, the very first group in Glasgow to ask to be removed from the Catholic Truth newsletter mailing list, some years ago, do not have my confidence. A layman named Daniel Something-Or-Other (odd name!) did the honours, but I have to assume that he did so on the authority, if not the direct instruction, of the priest-in-charge. So, I must declare a (lack of) interest – I’m no fan of Opus Dei in any case and Monsignor Livi has not altered my opinion.

    As for the rest of your post – superb! Or as they say in French, Esperanto, and umpteen other languages, “superbe”! Or, as they say in Holland… prachtig! Or, as I often say to myself, “Good old Google Translate”. 😀

    • Editor,

      Following up on the notion that the CT blog could be a sort of cyber-parish for modern Catholics, esp. as a source of orthodox catechesis, here’s a thought (which you’ve probably already thought of, since you always seem to be one step ahead of me):

      Is there a traditional priest up your sleeve who would be willing to answer questions from readers in the form of a blog topic, every so often? You could call it “Ask Father” or something of the sort, and create a separate email for these questions so you don’t get swamped. Webmaster or someone on the CT Team could collect the questions and forward them to Father, he could supply the answers, and the Team could post them.

      I await your reply with bated breath….clinging fiercely to all the zeros in my paycheck….

  9. I notice that 10% of voters are not sure about this question. I can understand that. Someone might not like ecumenism but be orthodox in every other way, and because they have been raised in the new Mass, not know any better.

    It’s thorny. I think the people who know there is something amiss but go along with it all, are the real problem. Not the “not sures”. I feel a bit sorry for them. I’m limiting my comment to the laity, though, not so sympathetic towards priests who should know better.

  10. No sooner did I post the above idea about an “Ask Father,” when I came across this (though “E. Christian Brugger” is obviously not a priest):

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/christianbrugger/do-you-have-a-difficult-moral-question-ask-the-register?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NCRegisterDailyBlog+National+Catholic+Register#When%3A2018-04-26+17%3A19%3A01

    Editor: PS: This column could also take the place of the “General Discussion” thread, which I know you are not enthralled about……

%d bloggers like this: