Rocky Road From Dublin: Irish Bishops In Rome – seeking end of celibacy?

The Irish Bishops are in Rome for their ad limina visit

shamrockBelow, report from The Irish Catholic…

The Irish hierarchy will not ask Pope Francis to consider permitting priests who left to get married to return to ministry at a meeting in Rome next week after failing to reach a consensus, The Irish Catholic can reveal.

However, Bishop Leo O’Reilly, who first brought the proposal for discussion with his fellow Irish bishops, said the issue may well come up during a series of meetings the Irish bishops are due to have with the Pontiff and senior Vatican officials in coming days.

The possibility of married men being ordained to the priesthood in Ireland may come up in next week’s meeting between the bishops and Pope Francis, according to the bishop who in 2015 said the idea should be considered.

The bishop’s observation comes against a background of rumours that the Pope is willing to allow married former priests to return to ministry in Brazil on a phased and experimental basis, and as Ireland’s bishops are due to make their first ad limina visit  to Rome in a decade.

In June 2015, Kilmore’s Bishop Leo O’Reilly said he was liaising with other bishops about setting up a commission to discuss the possibilities of ordaining married men and of appointing female deacons, saying that the Pope encouraged individual bishops and bishops’ conferences to be creative in looking at ways to do ministry in the future, and that Ireland bishops must “consider all options”.

Saints are used to handling snakes...

Saints are used to handling snakes…

However, Dr O’Reilly told The Irish Catholic, no decision was made when he raised the matter with his fellow bishops in 2015. 

“There was a discussion about it at the bishops’ conference, and it was inconclusive – there was no decision taken at that point, and that’s where it rested,” he said.

“Where it came from originally was the diocesan pastoral plan,” he said, highlighting how it had arisen following an 18-month listening process in his Kilmore diocese which had led in turn to a diocesan assembly and a new diocesan pastoral plan to tackle such challenges facing the Church as the declining number of priests.

“The request of the plan was that I would bring it to the bishops’ conference, which I have done,” he continued. “I don’t know whether there is anything more that I could do on it.”

At the same time, he said, there was a chance that the proposal could be raised at next week’s ad limina visit of the Irish bishops to Rome. “I’d say it’s possible,” he said, “because I would have sent in the pastoral plan as part of the submission of the report to the Vatican.”  Source

Comment…

Well.. will Catholic Irish eyes be smiling at the end of this ad limina d’ye think, at all, at all? 

62 responses

  1. Talk about snakes on a plane seems as if they were a few of them left in Ireland to travel to Rome. Don’t think Pope Francis would be all that bothered about this Proposal after all am sure The Lutherans have married ministers and that seems to be the Religion he’s following at the moment .

    • FOOF,

      Pope Francis has paid lip service at least to a celibate clergy to date. Let’s see what comes out of the Irish Bishops ad limina. It will be interesting to see if he gives them any grounds to hope for change.

    • I just read a wonderful article saying…our dear pope franics is desperately doing his best to get rid of 1000 yr. old dinosaur ”man made rules” out of the church. But, these irish bishops are too afraid to change. Brazil’s bishops are wise and smart. Our dear Pope Francis..is seeing the church going down with so many decreasing priests…he wants to take out man made rules of mandatory celibacy and change it back to ”optional” as it was with our disciples,, the very first christian priests. There is nothing wrong with married priests!!! Pope Francis knows his math..it seems to me these irish bishops are lousy in math…because..if ”priests vanish…then mass will vanish…then the church will vanish. Is this what these irish bishops want? they better wake up…and stop giving our dear pope a hard time!! He is a blessing to us all and the church!!!! thank you.

      • Haha, Mary. You having a laugh?! Have you even looked up what “our dear Pope” has said and done? I take it that’s a “no” then?

        • I don’t know what is really going on in our church…but,,,our dear pope is okay with married priests!! the vatican should just let us the people do the voting….not anymore these big shots bishops thinking they have so much power!!!! Keep laughing Helen…soon we are getting close to ending hypocrisy in our church!!!!

          • Dear Mary, our dear Mary, you are a very confused (if lovely, dear) lady!

            Listen, here’s an article by a priest on the origins of celibacy – actually, the priest is simply quoting our dear Pope John Paul II on the subject of celibacy, and it is a really sound, historical piece, so well worth reading, because, above all, we must do our dear God’s will, mustn’t we in this matter (as in all other matters)?

            If I may, dear Mary, I’d like to warn you against falling into the Protestant error of selecting bible verses or passages and treating them as if they may be interpreted in whatever way any individual chooses. That was Luther’s false teaching, that Scripture is the sole source of divine revelation, not requiring any authoritative interpretation, because each individual is empowered by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible for him/herself. That’s not the case, dear Mary. In fact, there are many places in Scripture itself where the idea is debunked that the Bible alone is all we need for salvation, but perhaps the clearest Biblical support for Catholic teaching (that God reveals Himself to us in both the oral tradition and Scripture) is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:14(15) where Christians are instructed to hold to both: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”

            I sincerely hope that, between the article quoting our dear Pope John Paul II and the writings of the great and very dear St Paul himself, you will have allowed us the joy of being able to clear up the evident confusion in your mind about this matter, dear, dear Mary.

            And do, please, pray for our dear Pope Francis the First (and we hope, Last) because he, too, dear, dear soul, is very confused on this matter – indeed, on ALL matters! Isn’t he, nevertheless, quite simply a dear?

          • Mary, our very own DEAR Mary – in order to find out what is “really going on in [Christ’s] Church” you need to read up on and reflect on the prophecies of Our dear Lady, both when she appeared at Quito- click here in the 17th century to warn of what was to befall the Church and the world in the 20th century, and when she appeared at Fatima in 1917 – click here to learn about those crucial prophecies.

            Once you realise that the only explanation for what is going on in the Church today is exactly what Our dear Lady prophesied (namely, that the Devil would enter and turn the Church in exactly the opposite direction to what God wills) then you will see very clearly, with crystal clarity, exactly what is going on in the Church today.

            God bless you, dear dear Mary – happy reading!

          • Mary

            You’re way too angry for a Christian. You sound more like a Communist revolutionary. The good news for you is that this Church of hypocrites always has room for one more.

      • Mary,

        May I suggest you read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on celibacy? Perhaps it will re-orient you to the Catholic Faith as well, since you seem to have been swept under the current of the worldly adulation of this disastrous papacy, as the Pope continues his drive to empty the Church of dogma, doctrine, discipline and holiness – and replace those precious gifts with Marxist political correctness….

        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

      • Oh Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,

        The Church is “going down with so many decreasing priests” . Try reading “Goodbye Good Men”. Try reading “Torch of the Faith'”s experiences in an English seminary. You’ll have a better idea of WHY the Church has so few priests, and, here’s a hint, it isn’t because of “man made rules”.

        • Well…if it isn’t going down with man made rules…it is going down from ”HYPOCRISY” MAY GOD BLESS OUR DEAR POPE FRANCIS!!!!

          • Dear dear Mary, none of us here would have any problem with a pope wishing to change man-made rules, but our very dear dear Pope Francis isn’t bothered about man-made rules (he has made up some himself!) so that’s not the issue. As you will have seen, in another comment just posted, I’ve provided you with evidence that celibacy is not a man-made rule, so you can read that before commenting further on that particular matter.

            Our dear Pope Francis, however, seems very keen to abandon rules that are not man-made at all but which spring from Catholic Tradition (and even Scripture. Seems that Jesus didn’t mean it when he said adultery was not allowed! Poor, dear Papa Francis!)

            I really don’t understand what you mean by “the Church is going down from “hypocrisy”… You’d need to explain that, since the Church and Christ our dear Lord are one, and as the Church is the spotless bride of Christ, she, the Church, cannot sin. Only we, the members can sin and be hypocrites, but there’s nothing new about that, dearest, DEAR Mary!

      • Mary

        I’m sorry to say that you are a product of these times of religious illiteracy, you have no clue about the Church’s history on celibacy or indeed what gave rise to a decline in priests 50 years ago.

        Do some research on the subject for goodness sake before giving us the “dear Pope Francis is seeing the Church going down” rubbish. Vatican II and the conciliar revolution lie at the heart of the priest crisis today. The Church had no problem filling the seminaries before that monstrous rebellion spread its poison and destroyed faith.

        Take a look at the Protestant Sects. They have married pastors yet their numbers are fast dwindling along with the numbers of celibate priests. As I say, the married clergy argument is a red herring in a time of unprecedented loss of faith. Open your eyes and for heavens’ sake do some objective research.

        • I’m sorry to say…but,,you have it all wrong dear!!! I’m saying mandatory celibacy is all man made…it used to be optional..by our first christian priests our dear disciples…it doesn’t say anywhere in the bible a priest has to remain celibate. A priest is not a robot..he is a man!! enough with man made hypocrisy in our church…it’s high time our dear pope reforms our church back to its’ ‘original roots”. We should all be like the protestants..orthodox…the anglican church..they are the ones who brought forth the ”orignal christian rules”. please stop replying..i will not read your comment. anymore!! thanks and blessings!! p.s. by the way i’m watching on our religious channel..our dear pope franics is visitng an anglican church in rome..”all saints”!!! Pope Francis is heaven sent to us!! May God bless our dear pope!!! Amen!!!!

          • Well, Mary – dear Mary – I’m sorry to say to you that YOU have it all wrong, dear. I’ve already posted this article elsewhere but click here to read it again because the message doesn’t seem to have gotten through to you that celibacy is NOT a man-made rule.

            Celibacy didn’t “used to be optional” dearest Mary – it still IS optional! Nobody is forced to become a priest, any more than someone is forced to become a doctor. If a young man doesn’t like the idea of celibacy, all he has to do is refrain from signing up for the priesthood, just as anyone who faints at the sight of blood ought to forget about medicine as a career.

            Doesn’t it all make perfect sense, dear, dear Mary?

            I see you are still talking like a Protestant about “celibacy not being in the Bible”. Well, it IS actually since Christ Himself was celibate and that’s in the Bible, and priests are ordained to be “other Christs” in the world. Get it? Also, when He called his first priests, some of whom may have been married or widowed (as is likely the case with Peter), when He called them to follow Him, the Bible says that they left “everything” to follow Him. So, it is foolish to accept Luther’s false teaching that Scripture is the sole source of divine revelation, not requiring any authoritative interpretation, because each individual is empowered by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible for him/herself. In fact, there are many places in Scripture itself where the idea is debunked that the Bible alone is all we need for salvation, but perhaps the clearest Biblical support for Catholic teaching (that God reveals Himself to us in both the oral tradition and Scripture) is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:14(15) where Christians are instructed to hold to both: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”

            Now, dear Mary, if, as I suspect, you are having a bit of fun here, playtime’s over. Read and reflect on the material provided for your education on this thread and then go and pray very hard for our very VERY dear dear Papa Francis the First (and we hope, Last).

            God bless you, Mary, dear. Dear DEAR Mary – go in peace to love and serve our very dear Lord…

          • Ever dear Mary

            please stop replying..i will not read your comment. anymore!!

            Of course you won’t, treasure! You don’t want to know the truth; you just want to spout your pink and fluffy ideas of what constitutes belief in God and in His Church, without any basis other than your lovely feelings. That’s not Catholic, although I think you gave the game away in your last post there – you aren’t a Catholic, are you?

            Try doing some research yourself, Mary, although I must warn you that you’d have to keep your eyes open to do so, which will be impossible to do with your head buried so far in the sand.

          • Mary

            You sound just like Martin Luther and all the Protestant Reformers since the 16th century. But I’m sorry to tell you that celibacy in the Latin rite Church has always been mandatory, right from day one.

            We do know that St. Peter was married before his calling to the priesthood, but there is no record whatever that he or any of the other ordained disciples of Our Lord lived in a married state. There is nothing in Sacred Scriptures or recorded Church history to suggest anything other than that they all lived celibate priestly lives.

            And by the way, celibacy is not “a man made rule” as you suggest, it is a discipline of the Church founded on the life of Our Lord, the High Priest, who exemplifies the celibate priesthood and has willed that those He calls to that sacred state leave the carnal behing in favour of the spiritual.

            It’s so sad that so many modern Catholics today have lost that supernatural faith and understanding, so much so that they now think and act like Protestants. When supernatural grace diminishes, the void has to be filled with something. That something in our time is a fixation with sex. People today just cannot understand how anyone would or could live without it. It’s like going back 2000 years to the pagan world.

          • Mary

            “it doesn’t say anywhere in the bible a priest has to remain celibate.”

            Neither is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the seven Sacraments or any of the infallible dogmas directly referenced in the Bible, yet we know that the foundational truths of these things are to be found in the Scriptural texts which the Church has the power to teach about and formally define. Or don’t you believe in any of these truths either?

            I’m beginning to wonder what kind of religion you belong to, Mary. It sounds like you’re not even Christian. You speak of the Bible and the early Christians and yet you seem to have no real knowledge of either.

            “…We should all be like the protestants..orthodox…the anglican church..they are the ones who brought forth the ”orignal christian rules”…”

            You do know that your words are heretical and schismatic. These very same Sects would first dethrone our “dear Pope” because they don’t accept his universal Petrine primacy. So, in fact, you’re calling for the Pope to be dethroned. Some of the Protestants even call him anti-christ.

            the lunacy about original Christian rules is just that, lunacy. It’s too stupid to respond to.

          • In the simplest possible terms, Mary: a Catholic priest, if he has voluntarily chosen that vocation, is first of all an alter christus, and secondly, a man. That means, in even simpler terms, that his spiritual calling is superimposed over his natural one, and he must therefore subdue it in order to be faithful to God, and to the souls in his care.

            But you, like your hero Pope Francis, would have that priority inverted. Not surprising, considering this inversion is the essential theme of the conciliar Church, which has uncrowned Our Lord in order to worship man – and his “needs” – instead.

            Do you think a Catholic priest should be faithful to God, Mary? Yes or no?

      • Dear Mary – dearest, dear Mary!

        I’ve posted this article in a couple of comments below for your education (and edification) in the matter of celibacy – please read it and realise that celibacy is not 1,000 years old but 2,000 years old. Our (dear) Lord was celibate and He is the High Priest, the model for the priesthood. Even where celibacy is not in force, no priest may marry after ordination and no married priest may attain the fullness of the priesthood in episcopal office (put simply, they are not permitted to become bishops).

        Papa Francis – dear Papa Francis – is about more than changing or abolishing what you consider (wrongly) to be man-made rules; he wants to re-invent the Church. The one given to us by Our (dear) Lord isn’t good enough for him, you see. He wants a brand new Church, one that will please our enemies – won’t happen, dear Mary. Won’t happen, although we have to give credit to dear, DEAR Papa Francis for having a jolly good old stab at it, bless his dear, dear socks…

        For the record, though, the Irish bishops have no problem with maths, but I guess they realise that, having weakly stood by when homosexual “marriage” was introduced helped by some of their own clergy, and seeing the dire state of the Church in that once Catholic land, they had better not risk further damaging the Faith of the people in their charge. Something like that. Not really sure, so forgive me, dear, DEAR Mary, for not quite getting into the minds of the Irish bishops.

        I know that last remark will be seen by some of the rogues on here as a cue for an Irish joke – resist the temptation, dear, DEAR bloggers. RESIST! Or it may cost you… dearly!

  2. Let these unfortunate men do what they will, the Holy Ghost will never permit a married clergy. Celibacy is at the heart of the priesthood, if they take that away then the entire principle of the priest as ‘altar Christus’ has gone. The incontinent priest is simply a man who has betrayed his vow to Our Lord. The married priest who argues that he should still function as a priest is twice traitor.

    • The faith that I grew up with is dying a death of a thousand cuts. These men never believed what they taught (ergo liars, cheats and swindlers of our faith, yes, we are swindled out of our faith) and now the mask is off. As “we” get older and die off they now have to play to the younger “audience”….I will not use the word congregation, as all of this just plays to the gallery….therefore a new Synod in 2018 and so forth.To me it is becoming obvious that they no longer (if they ever did) believe in the Blessed Sacrament and in my opinion that is the root of this and AL and so forth..Sacrilege is NEVER mentioned these days…..only so called Mercy.So ANYTHING goes as there is obviously no punishment for anything from an all Merciful God who will just “accompany us on our journey to Hell”.

      • Lupine,

        You have got it in one – these bishops do not hold to divine and Catholic Faith. That’s the root of everything we are witnessing.

    • Athanasius,

      I have long been of the opinion that one of the outcomes of this crisis will be the formal acknowledgment by the Church authorities that celibacy is more than a mere “discipline” – priests are celibate because Christ was celibate and that because total self-sacrifice in that sense is at the heart of the priesthood.

      The Anglican exceptions given to date, however good or worthy the candidates, will be written off as an aberration and the Easterns who do permit married priests to be ordained, will conform – they already, I believe, regret the introduction of married clergy and recognise the link between celibacy and priesthood as the ideal. And it is a practical ideal. It is perfectly possible to be celibate and happy even in the most base human terms.

      The Irish bishops are worldly men, willing to go along to get along as we saw at the time of the same-sex “marriage” referendum. They are spineless. Or is it “faithless” – or both? Whatever – they’re not authentically Catholic. That’s the point.

      • Editor

        I completely agree. Celibacy is synonymous with sharing in the priesthood of Our Lord, absolutely indispensable for the ordained who truly desire to imitate the High Priest Himself. It all comes down to Faith and a willingness to sacrifice. The worldly don’t understand the concept of sacrifice and that’s why Our Lord is a stumbling block for them. Priests are supposed to comprehend the beauty of the celibate state, however, the sacrificing of the flesh for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Many now being completely saturated in worldliness, though, want the best of both worlds. They deny the supernatural help of grace for their state in life and seek only to gratify their own inclinations. It seems Calvary taught them nothing!

        • Athanasius,

          Beautifully put!

          The worldly don’t understand the concept of sacrifice and that’s why Our Lord is a stumbling block for them . Absolutely true!

          How important it is for us to, not only be generous in our willingness to sacrifice, but to find means of keeping this spirit alive if we are to resist worldliness in order to keep our minds and hearts free for God.

          • Anne,

            Why do you think it is a “crock” (complete nonsense) to say the the worldly do not understand the concept of sacrifice?

            They certainly understand the sort of “sacrifice” that will benefit themselves – like engaging in punishing schedules to win a football game or participate in the Olympics, but self sacrifice in the spiritual sense, they haven’t a clue. How many worldlings offer up an insult in silence, to help their own soul and the souls of others? More likely to sue the offender for huge damages to their ego.

            Unless you can demonstrate otherwise?

        • Oh gimme a break. Not that again.

          I presume you live somewhere that doesn’t have police or lawyers or prosecutors or judges and those who complain about criminal activity are packed off with a flea in their ear to learn to be more “charitable” – gimme, I say it again, a break!

    • We already have one. The Eastern Catholic Churches? I know that these are an aberration from the Apostolic norm (codifed only much later) but nevertheless, why should the Holy Ghost oppose the imposition – for that is what it will be – of a married clergy on the Latin Church?

      • Benedict,

        I think the point has been made very clearly on this thread already, that Christ was celibate and that is, therefore, the norm for Catholic priests. That aberrations have occurred (Easterns) and continue to occur (Anglican Ordinariate) doesn’t change the fact that, at its most perfect, the Church (Christ) expects celibacy of her priests. Even where there are aberrations, married priests are restricted in their “ministry” and can never, for example, hold episcopal office.

        Don’t worry about the Holy Ghost – when the time comes for a thorough examination of these times and this horrendous, ongoing crisis, with its attendant scandals, especially clerical sexual scandals, the theologians will set to work to invoke a deeper understanding of how to conduct the priestly ministry in the future. We’ll be meeting in MacDonald’s in Sauchiehall Street to thrash out the issues. You’ll see. Then….

        Celibacy as integral to the priesthood, will come to pass. Or the coffees (and hamburgers) are on me!

      • Benedict Carter

        The Holy Ghost will oppose such an imposition because it has never been the tradition of the Western Church to have a married clergy.

        As you say, the situation in the Eastern Church is an aberration, not the norm. But even so it is very strictly limited to a small group who married before entering seminary. Bishops in the Eastern Church are not permitted to be married under any circumstances, and we know that elevation to the episcopate is called “the fullness of the priesthood”.

        Tradition in the East, then, has always permitted a handful of marreid clergy, which, as we agree, is an aberration, though not rebellion. If it were to be introduced in the West by official order of the Pope against Tradition, then that would represent rebellion as it would signify a priesthood no longer reflecting the image of Our Lord.

    • I don’t agree with you athanasius…in the year 900..roman catholic priests were free to be married if they wished..it was optional celibacy..taken from our first dear christian priests…the disciples of jesus..whom were married priests…including st.peter our first dear bishop. this mandatory celibacy was brought into the church for politics..so when a priest past away he would have to leave his richess to the churh..that is why the church all these decades doesn’t want a priest married with a wife or children…how shameful!! Jesus chose married men!!! also do you like how perverted priests have gone sexually mollesting our innocent youths for centuries? the vatican ..the church covered them up? by this awful man made rule of a strange mandatroy celibacy..which is so hypocritical..so many priests have lovers hidden behind church walls..so they are still having sex!! priests are humans..not robots as the church expects them to be….it’s time to end this mess…it’s time the church goes back to its’ original roots of..”optional celibacy.” thank you!!!!

      Editor: you don’t seem to have noticed that celibacy IS “optional”. Nobody is forced into the priesthood, just as nobody who chooses to be a hospital doctor or nurse is “forced” into shift-work, but it’s part of the package and if you don’t want to be a shift-worker, don’t go in for medicine. Ditto priesthood.

      There are a number of key errors in your take on Church history/history of priestly celibacy in your comment, but I’ll leave others to deal with them, as right now, I need to be elsewhere. Let me simply say this, however. Priests are celibate because they are “other Christs” at both the altar and in the world, and Christ was celibate. Oh, and for the record, St Peter was “our first dear”… Pope! Bring him back, all is forgiven!

  3. I always understood Luke 9:62 “Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God” as meaning that those who had left the priesthood or religious life were not to be readmitted.

    • WF,

      That verse is chilling and it always comes to my mind when the topic of priests abandoning their ministry arises. If they don’t make it as faithful priests, how can any woman be sure that he will make a faithful husband?

      I’m just reading about a dreadful scandal that took place in the USA a few years back, where a “senior” priest, tipped for episcopal office, abused his role as spiritual director to a married woman (Mrs L) to eventually break up her family, leaving her husband devastated when she left him, despite his appeals to the diocese to stop the affair and – incredibly – they were given full custody of the couple’s four children. The husband suffered a heart attack. The unfaithful pair then “married” in a civil ceremony and enjoyed their wedded bliss, while he undertook “ministry” in the “Episcopal Church” – until he eventually divorced the former Mrs L to “marry” his secretary from the “Episcopal Church”.

      What was in his mind on ordination day? Self-sacrifice? Saving souls? Not in a million years. I mean, I don’t even read lips, let alone minds, but that’s self-evident. Whatever was in his mind on his ordination day, was not the thinking of a man about to become “another Christ”. Trust me on this.

  4. Editor

    It is well documented in history that wherever supernatural faith starts to wane, sexual promiscuity increases dramatically. God created us to desire happiness, the happiness of heaven, but when supernatural faith fails it stands to reason that human beings will seek to fulfill their desire for happiness in other ways. The problem with that is that those other ways, the gratification of the flesh and senses, don’t bring happiness at all, only misery. There can be no true and lasting happiness apart from God. It would do today’s liberal hierarchy well to remember this truth and make sure they etch it into the minds of their priests. This priestly celibacy debate in the Church today arises from a global loss of faith on a huge scale.

  5. Their Revolution has produced a wasteland. Instead of examining the connection between the two, the Revolution must be protected at all costs.

    What precisely is it about Vatican II and its Revolution that is so alluring to these men? In what exactly resides its strength?

    (And if I hear a smug “diabolical disorientation” once more I shall foam at the mouth and fall over backwards, so don’t, just don’t. Vatican II and its spirit has these people in a total grip – what is the nature of it?).

    • Benedict,

      The “nature of it” (the Revolution) is spiritual blindness. Spiritual blindness is the logical extension of relativism which leads to nihilism (not knowing right from wrong) which IS – per se – spiritual blindness.

      Spiritual blindness can only come from Satan. Thus, the fact that the moral order is turned, literally, upside down, means that the devil has caused this disorientation, this spiritual blindness. That is to say, the bishops actually don’t SEE that Vatican II has been bad for the Church. What we recognise as damaging to the Church, they see as good for the Church.

      Another way of explaining that, more concisely, is the banned (by you) DD prophesied by Our Lady in the Fatima apparitions. There’s nothing “smug” about the term “diabolical disorientation” which was prophesied by Sr Lucia, thus coming from Our (very unsmug) Lady.

      Hope that’s a bit clearer.

    • > What precisely is it about Vatican II and its Revolution that is so alluring to these men? In what exactly resides its strength?

      “as soon as you eat this fruit your eyes will be opened, and you yourselves will be like gods, knowing good and evil…”

      The Revolution is the putting into practice of the absolute autonomy of every person along all lines of human activity, without reference to the authority of the Deity. It’s flattering to one’s ego, in a serpentine sort of way.

      Sycophantic enticements are merely a start, however; with time these give way on the part of the recruit to habits of action (by repetition), speech (cliches are preferred), and thought (if you must) that serve as shackles indeed – not so much because the constraints are so strong, but because the contrary virtues that would liberate have atrophied.

      A great aid is a quarantined sterile, shallow, banal pop-media environment where the s progression of Revolutionary faculties can ferment without disruption – and where opposing instincts, talents, and aptitudes are starved and suffocated.

      Eat, drink, and be merry, my lads – and tomorrow, play this recording again.

  6. What I’d like to know is, how could Ireland, once so Catholic, with priests who missionised the whole world, have come to this, bishops who want to introduce married clergy? I can’t believe it, even although I know they went astray at the “gay marriage” vote.

    • Josephine,

      You will observe that it is the countries that once so stoutly upheld and defended the Catholic Faith that have come in for a particular fall to the demonic in our time. The same can be said for that great chamion order, the Jesuits, which once defended the Faith unto death. There is hardly an orthodox Jesuit left in the Church. The Jesuits became the champions of Modernism and have spread that evil right through the Mystical Body.

      • Anne

        They say ignorance is bliss. You’ve just proved it. Why don’t you do some actual research into why there are so few priests? Firstly, discard your prejudice; forget what you think you know, and do some reading. As I suggested to Mary, above, make a start by reading Goodbye Good Men, and you’ll begin to get a glimmer of an idea of why the Church is so lacking priestly vocations. You have nothing to lose, and much to gain by doing so. Then, if you really care, come back and the bloggers here will be able to provide you with much more information.

        Prove you’re sincere and you’ll find lots of people happy to enlighten you on the true state of affairs.

    • Editor

      I see they are still arguing that Our Lady delivered Russia from “the scourge of Marxism” as a result of John Paul II’s 1984 Consecration Act. If I remember correctly the WAOF interprets this as a fulfilment of the Blessed Virgin’s promise to convert Russia. It wasn’t a promise to convert that nation to the Catholic Faith, they dec;are. No, it was a promise to deliver it from Marxism. What a massive lie these people peddle.

  7. To answer, somewhat wryly and cynically, Editor’s headline question, I think what these bishops are really seeking is an end to their vocation without losing the secular benefits, i.e. wages and pensions. The true Faith obviously embarrasses them to the point where they are ashamed of it, which means they have bought into the VII propaganda about “triumphalism” etc. lock, stock and barrel. Likewise, the substitute “faith” of this new religion they practice is very attractive, not only because it assures their financial status, but because they think it makes them acceptable to the world as icons of compassion, enlightenment, diversity, tolerance and inclusion….all those satanic United Nations buzzwords, in short.

    As for spiritual blindness, it seems to extend to intellectual blindness as well (was it Dom Gueranger who described Modernism as an intellectual disease?): not only blindness to the shattered Church they’ve helped to bring about, but blindness to the heretical confusion, schism and physical data (e.g. # seminarians, closed parishes, etc.) that proves the disaster.

    Not to mention blindness to the fact that, despite their delusions about being respected by the world, they are in fact become the spineless laughingstock of the world.

    Finally, to add a bit to Athanasius’ post about sexual promiscuity rushing into the void created by the loss of supernatural faith, there is one other demonic phenomenon that rushes in as well: Islam.

  8. Here’s a report on the ad limina, dated 20th January, from the wonderful Irish Times (about as “wonderful” as a cup of tea laced with cyanide…) As you would expect,nothing was off limits for discussion (although I guess if any bishop had raised the possibility of offering a traditional Mass in even one diocese, all hell would, literally, have broken loose and completely spoiled their little liberal-fest); there was no ticking off about the falling Mass attendances and/or the same-sex “marriage” referendum. All great guys together, working in the Lord’s vineyard, so to speak…. Or am I being too harsh (again)? Read on and then opine…

    THE IRISH TIMES

    Pope Francis has told Irish bishops their role should be one of a “goalkeeper”, ready to take shots from any direction.

    The pope made this observation during a two-hour audience with the bishops, who have been in Rome all week on an “Ad Limina” (to the threshold) visit to the Pope and the Holy See.

    Speaking at a news conference after their audience, Archbishop Eamon Martin, and president of the Irish Bishops conference, said he and his fellow Bishops had been very encouraged by the “open attitude” and the “listening mode” of both the pontiff and the Holy See curia.

    Also attending the news conference were the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, the Bishop of Kildare Denis Nulty and the Bishop of Limerick, Brendan Leahy.

    Both Archbishops stressed the informal, relaxed nature of their audience.

    Rather than greet the bishops with a prepared text, the pope sat down beside them in a large group.

    Archbishop Eamon Martin said the conversation, with the aid of an English-speaking interpreter, was about the Church in Ireland and about “the hopes, the fears and the struggles of our people”.

    Archbishop Martin, one of the small number of Irish bishops present at the last Irish “Ad Limina” visit in 2006, called the meeting “quite extraordinary”.

    “He didn’t present us with an agenda of the things he wanted to talk about. The dominant thing was he was asking us and challenging us about what it means to be a Bishop in Ireland or anywhere today,” the Archbishop said.

    Instead the pope’s questions were practical, not political. He asked how do we begin a dialogue with young people?

    According to Archbishop Martin, the pope told the bishops not to be ideological. “We should meet with people the way they are.”

    “He described the bishop as being like a goalkeeper: the shots keep coming from everywhere. You stand there and be ready there,” Archbishop Martin said.

    The Irish Times asked if the Irish Church had come to Rome wary of being criticised by a Holy See disappointed with falling mass attendance in a country which last year voted in favour of same sex marriage, in direct defiance of Catholic Church teaching?

    The Archbishop of Dublin said the atmosphere in the Vatican had been “very, very different” and the Irish bishops “certainly did not have the impression that they were under investigation or accusation”.

    Archbishop Martin also said meetings with different departments in the Holy See had been “extremely fruitful, cordial and challenging”.

    Asked had the Bishops discussed with the pope issues including clerical sex abuse, the role of women and his forthcoming visit to Ireland next year, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin replied “nothing was off the agenda”.

    Bishop Denis Nulty of Kildare said the word conversation best summed up not just the audience with the pope but also the entire week.

    Bishop Leahy of Limerick said he thought the pope wanted to give the bishops a conviction “that, yes, as a Church community, we want to create a family and I came away with that very strong message”.

    What message would I, me, moi like to communicate to the Irish Bishops (not to mention Papa Francis)? In a word? Gerragrip!

    Or is that three words? 😀

    • Quite simple, we are being swindled out of our faith by these reprobates and miserable excuses for clergy. They obviously lied their way into the priesthood (cushy number, no fear of redundancy, four square meals a day and a housekeeper to do the housework)…far too many of them for this to be a coincidence and they PREACHED fire and brimstone once and now it is just “mercy”…they NEVER believed a word of what they previously preached and they expect us to believe in THEM now ! They despise the Trads..especially the SSPX who constantly prick their consciences.How the SSPX ever expect to do a deal with this mindset entrenched in Rome is beyond me.

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