Pope seeks “new ways round” Anglican Schism – leave it to the God of Surprises!

From The Telegraph 5/10/16…

Pope Francis and the Archbishop of Canterbury have publicly pledged to press on towards the full reunification of the [  ]  Catholic and Anglican churches – while admitting they “do not yet see” a  solution to differences over the female clergy and sexuality.

pope-justinwelbyThey insisted they were “undeterred” in their desire to heal the split between the two churches which emerged amid the convulsions of the Reformation, which began 500 years ago next year.

In a joint declaration in Rome, where they led prayers together, they spoke of decades of progress on reaching common ground on the major areas of disagreement but acknowledged there were still “serious obstacles” to full communion.

These, they acknowledged, include the ordination of female clergy in the Church of England and other Anglican provinces, a move viewed by
[ ]  Catholics as a fundamental breach with its teaching that bishops follow in an unbroken line of male succession from the original apostles.

While we ourselves do not yet see solutions to the obstacles before us, we are undeterred.

 They also singled out “more recent questions regarding human sexuality” – a deliberately vague reference to the controversies especially within the Church of England over the possibility of effectively blessing same-sex marriages and gay bishops.

Crucially, however, they signalled that they would seek new ways around their theological differences, saying they believed God would “open new doors”.

They also urged their respective clergy to join forces on the ground, making the most of the “certain yet imperfect communion” the two churches already share.

And, strikingly, the Archbishop, the Most Rev Justin Welby jointly led the service with a female priest, his interim chaplain the Rev Julia Pickles, by his side. [all emphases added]     Read more here


It’s that word again – “new”.  We’ve had the new Mass, new rosary, new catechism, new code of canon law, new morality, new philosophy of Catholic education and now, predictably, new ways round schism.  We’ve had New Labour, now we have New Catholic.  

IS there any way round the Anglican schism, now that they have women “priests”, and with the official approval of same-sex “marriage” on the horizon.  Well?  

55 responses

  1. What puerile, patronising nonsense this event was – as with all forms of ecumenism which, by now, is no more than empty platitudes. Hot air.

    All that ever comes out of these non-events is the regular meaningless “recommitment” etc. It’s garbage. Anyone with half a brain can see that, over the last 50 years in particular, protestant sects have erected new barrier after new barrier to unity. The protestant sects are diverging from the Catholic Church, not converging with it. They are led by secular society, not by Jesus Christ.

    Of course, protestants are not genuinely interested in unity and never have been. Their interest in these events only extends as far as using them as a stage for themselves, and for their erroneous perception that they receive a certain legitimacy through participation.

    If Francis offered the Anglicans a form of unity right now, without changing anything other than that they would now be part of the Catholic Church – they would reject it, because they would not accept Christian teaching or being subject to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Its deeply insulting of the Catholic hierarchy to patronise the faithful in this way, as if anything worthwhile could ever come out of such nonsense, or as if there is even a genuine effort to achieving something worthwhile. It is also a form of negligence on their part, as this is what they waste their time on when they should be catechising and leading the faithful.

    Of course, as Christians we have the responsibility to foster good relations with others and work together for the common good where possible – but that can take place without the patently false drivel about “working towards unity”.

    Ironically, the Telegraph article mentions how the Pope sent St Augustine to reconvert Anglo-Saxons. He didn’t send Augustine to praise heretics/schismatics or to indulge in a meaningless talking shop.

    Of course, that Francis is so keen on such events is hardly surprising, given he and the Anglicans founder share the same view of Marriage, in direct opposition to that of Our Lord.

    I always liked reading Archbishop Lefebvre, when he said (paraphrasing) “When Cardinal Ratzinger is asked to highlight the good fruits of Vatican II, he doesn’t know what to say”.

    If Francis was asked to highlight the good fruits of ecumenism, he would be in a similar quandry. I am sure he would waffle on for a good while though (which is probably why people don’t ask).

    Its hardly surprising that ever less people are committed to Christianity, when its patently obvious that in large part its mainstream has degenerated to become nothing more than people with starkly different values fawning over one another and pretending they have lots in common.

    • Gabriel Syme,

      That’s a fabulous post from you!

      You are completely right to say about ecumenism “It is also a form of negligence on their part, as this is what they waste their time on when they should be catechising and leading the faithful.”

      True, but when will the hierarchy see that for themselves and withdraw from the ecumenical nonsense?

      • Josephine,

        You are too kind, I had gone into “rant” mode above (to my discredit!) haha!

        I do not think the bulk of the hierarchy will ever disengage from ecumenism. They are too cowardly and would fear the possible criticism / bad publicity such a move might bring. Even if they were clear sighted enough to see it – and surely some are (they cant all be idiots?!?) – they prefer just to sit in silence, much as they do regarding Amoris Laetitia.

        What I think will happen instead is that the protestant sects will simply pass into history (as will happen to many in the early part of this century). Then, many Bishops will find themselves with time on their hands and be at a loss as to what to do with themselves. And it will be out of this aimless period that the mainstream Church will rediscover itself and what it should really be doing (this rediscovery will no doubt be jumped-started by the SSPX).

        The failing Scottish Catholic Observer recently gave a platform to a lady from the Church of Scotland, who wrote gushingly about the modern warm relations between what she erroneously termed “the two Churches”. The article was mostly fluff of the type one would expect, but she did note the “irrevocable doctrinal differences” which exist.

        And so she had said it openly, if in a roundabout fashion – ecumenism is a nonsense which will never achieve anything due to irrevocable differences. Of course, she didn’t expand on the doctrinal differences – why difference exists, when Our Lord taught in a very direct and straightforward way, was obviously too hot a topic.

        Nor did the Lady mention the fact that the Church of Scotland, at its current rate of decline, is expected to pass into history sometime around 2030, a mere 14 years away.

        And so is that really why Our Lord died on the cross, so that people with “irrevocable doctrinal differences” may flatter one another, while doing their best to ignore the impending doom?

        • Gabriel Syme,

          I don’t think that was a rant at all, but an eloquent and articulate expression of righteous anger – to which we are fully entitled, as long as we remember that we have this disgrace of a Pope because we deserve him. He is the face of God’s wrath.

          The bottom line of ecumenism, really, is to destroy the Church by diluting it beyond recognition, so it’s not futility at all, because it is obviously achieving its true objective. And I daresay that this Pontificate, which would be more aptly named a Criminal Syndicate, is merely carrying to its logical conclusion the efforts of the 5 previous Pontificates. With bells on, as Editor would say.

      • Josephine,

        They’ll withdraw when they have to face “the fifth mark of the Church” – persecution (to paraphrase Hilaire Belloc – RIP).

        • Margaret USA,

          I think that’s exactly right. Until the Consecration of Russia, and that seems to be going to happen when there is an attack of some kind, i.e. when a persecution is underway, they’ll just keep on doing what they’re doing. I keep meaning to count how many times the word “fool” appears in Scripture, but never get round to it – LOL!

  2. The Archdiocese of Glasgow is hosting a “discussion on ecumenism” on Monday 24th October, in Eyre Hall (7pm).


    This is an opportunity for people to share their experience of Ecumenism within their local area and to consider different ways of furthering Christian Witness


    I had thought of visiting to offer my views, but I am sure I would be thrown out. I am sure there would be an uncomfortable silence if someone went along and asked “What has all this achieved?”, or other obvious but deeply unwelcome question.

    A big problem is that, for a lot of people, Ecumenism has become a hobby of sorts and people genuinely believe that drinking tea down at the local “Wee Wee Free (twice removed through marriage), born again, reformed Church of Scotland Mk 4 (continuing)” represents genuine Christian witness.


    • Gabriel Syme,

      Not many Catholics who see that advert would think of going along to correct the error – you are one in heavens knows how many millions.

      I do think that is exactly the kind of thing we ought to be doing, but I suspect that if I were to show my (anything but) pretty little face, I’d be surrounded by “stewards” aka guards, without delay and turfed out as soon as I raised my hand to speak.

      Still, if anyone thinks it’s worthwhile a few of us going along, if only to be turfed out together, speak now or forever hold your peace!

      • Editor,

        Now that is an idea, what better thing to do than (as you say) correcting the error of ecumenism. I would imagine hysterics would break out, Think there might be any chance of a police escort out of the building, rather than by the stewards?

  3. You could always carry Forward Together in Hope leaflets prominently displayed, until you get past the guards..

  4. Gabriel Syme, do it. Just do it. Go! And go alone as they won’t suss you out until it’s too late. Editor is too infamous, ahem, I mean FAMOUS and would be chased out. Bring your child too, if you can. They won’t know WHAT hit them until it’s too late!

  5. New, new new….new BS is all we get from this so-called Pope.

    However, none of it is really that new – it all started when the fateful words were first spoken: “Did God really say that you could not eat of the fruit of any of the trees in the garden…?” So-called “ecumenism” is just the latest in a long series of demonic deceptions which are designed to lead the faithful away from Christ.

    The great deception here begins with the premise that Christ prayed for the unity of everybody who claims to be a Christian. He did not of course – He prayed for the unity of the apostles and all those who would come to believe “through their word” i.e. all those who would hold the apostolic faith. He didn’t pray that His followers would be united with those who would believe through Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, John Knox etc. etc. etc.

    Ecumenism is the devil’s plan to get Catholics to sup with heretics, just as he succeeded in getting Eve to sup from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. These pontiffs of the last 50 years seem to get suckered by him every time. Roll on Leo XIV.

  6. I think the fact that the Anglicans now have women “bishops” should have put an end to the whole issue of unity with them.

    This pope is just beyond belief. Fiddling whilst Rome burns has never been more accurate. I saw him in Georgia last week and he got a very a very frosty welcome and the Orthodox Church forbade its members from attending Mass. They said that whilst doctrinal differences existed Orthodox couldn’t attend. If only the pope was so clear minded.

  7. I was once and once only involved in an ecumaniacal undertaking. Strong-armed by a priest who begged me to attend, saying “You’ll be the only Catholic there apart from me, don;t leave me all alone”, I gave in and agreed.

    “So who’s coming?” I asked.
    “The Salvation Army”, the priest replied. “I can’t not do it, I have to write a report about it to the Bishop. But don’t worry, I know exactly what to do”.
    “What’s the cunning plan, Father?”
    “The Salvation Army will not ever kneel. It’s against their religion. So we will do the Stations of the Cross and kneel at every Station. After fourteen of them they will have had more than enough and will run for cover, mark my words”.

    And that’s exactly what happened. The twelve or so brass band brothers and sisters couldn’t get out of the church fast enough after Stations of the Cross in Latin, with incense and vast amounts of kneeling.

    Ecumenism at its finest.

    • BenCJ,

      That’s a good one! Still, you have to give the, er, Separated Minstrels credit for at least staying for all fourteen. The majority of Catholics nowadays would have slipped away half way through to get home in time for the Z Factor.

      • You’re so right. I reckon Our Lord will look more kindly on those decent folk with their tubas more kindly than on many a so-called Catholic.

  8. There is no way at all “around” the Anglican schism even if they had not “ordained” priestesses, to answer the Editor.

    But it’s not just a matter of schism, is it? Anglicanism is riven with Lutheran, Bucerian and then Calvinist heresies, on Grace, the Sacraments, the Priesthood, the Church, the Papacy and so much more.

    But given Bergoglio’s recent judgment of transubstantiation as an “opinion”, thereby directly contradicting Trent (as on so many other occasions) anything at all is possible.

    • BCJC

      You’re right about almost everything in that post. I say almost everything because you refer to Pope Francis as “Bergoglio”. No matter how bad his Pontificate we are obliged out of respect for his office to call him by his proper title. Only the poor blind sedevacantists and other schismatics refuse respect to the Vicar of Christ. I am loathed to think of you as one of those unfortunate souls.

      • Bergoglio is what I called him and Bergoglio it what I shall call him. he himself refuses the title of Supreme Pontiff (until the moment arrives when he chooses to wave it around like some flag). On the odd occasion he teaches something – by luck I think – that is Catholic I shall follow him. Otherwise, I shan’t.

        As for your obvious “phishing” Athanasius, one should report you to the proper authorities.

  9. I get the impression that by and large only ‘new’ Catholics have this ecumenism disease. None of the many church of Scotland heretics that are related to me by marriage would have any truck with it. A few years ago, at a granddaughter’s wedding to one of them, I was put at a table at the reception with a couple of church of Scotland zealots because it was thought that as we were all ‘religious’ (!) we would get on well – I kid you not! They had been informed that I was ‘religious’, but not that I was Catholic. As soon as the speeches were over they launched into an enthusiastic account of the groom’s most admirable grandfather’s activities in Poland, where, at the request of the bishops there, he was busy converting the Poles to Lutheranism. “And they’re CATHOLIC, you know”, they ended in triumhant unison. Not much idea of ecumenism there, then.

  10. Happy Feast of the Holy Rosary everyone!

    I decided not to post a dedicated thread for the Feast this year, but there is a hymn on video on the website home-page plus a voting poll on Rosary Crusades. Since the Rosary is a required weapon to overcome ecumenism and all the other heresies in the Church today, feel free to use this thread to pay tribute to the Feast and to discuss any related issues.

  11. I can only say that there is no way round the teaching of the Church, that if the Anglicans want to be saved they have to return to the Church Christ founded.

    Happy Feast of the Rosary, to all bloggers. I am posting a video of the hymn Queen of the Holy Rosary but it’s not the tune I know. It’s a nice tune and it’s the only one on the internet, as I tried to find the one I know myself, but it’s not there. I’d never heard this one before – it’s lovely, too.

    • That is lovely Laura and is the hymn tune I know. Cannot recall hearing it for years, sadly. Another beautiful tradition consigned to history. Happy feast day everyone.

    • Laura,

      I have tried over a number of years to find the other tune to Queen of the Holy Rosary – I suspect it’s the same one that you learned. It’s nowhere to be found on the internet. Anyway, the one you’ve posted is nice as well, but I have a thing about hearing the hymns with which I grew up and I tend to resent the rest! Shocking, I know – my chief concern ought to be to give glory to Our Lady, so I take back the “resent” remark 😀

      Thank you for posting that version, especially since it has brought back memories to Elizabeth – I think the English faithful were raised on a whole different string of hymns from those of us north of the border. Poor souls. 😉

  12. I wish everyone here a very happy Feast of the Holy Rosary.

    This feast was started after the victory at the Battle of Lepanto, which was won, literally, by the rosary, so I thought this talk on the Battle of Lepanto would be good to post.

  13. It gets worse, here is an article about how Welby supposedly had Francis “rolling in the aisles” with his comedy routine.

    ‘What’s the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist? You can negotiate with a terrorist’.

    ‘You wait years for an archbishop to come along and then you get 14 at once’

    Hilarious eh?

    Apparently the hot air….sorry declaration made at the end referred to an “imperfect union” which supposedly exists.

    In what way does any kind of union, imperfect or otherwise, exist between Anglicans and the Catholic Church? It doesn’t.


    This ecumenism lark is obviously a major reason why there is so much resistance to authentic Catholic worship – because that cannot easily be turned into a stage for this kind of nonsense.

    • I think that’s a key point. Traditional Catholicism is opposed because it is anti-ecumenical and anti-conciliar.

      An old lady sticks in my mind. I went to a youth festival in the Concert Hall when I was 15. It was run by the Archdiocese of Glasgow. Everybody who believed in anything from the Tooth Fairy to the Buddha got an invite. However, this wee lady wandered around giving out Miraculous Medals and talking to the young people about Our Lady.

      It made a big impression on me, so I’d like to say, “Editor…..thank you!”

    • Gabriel Syme

      The Popes before Vatican II utterly condemned, as fatal to the Catholic religion, the false principle that the Mystical Body of Christ (His Catholic Church) is dismembered and scattered in the form of various shcismatic and heretical sects. No matter how many separate themselves from the one true Church, what remains under fidelity to the Pope is always and only the Mystical Body of Christ. The others have merely cut themselves off from the true vine and are no longer members of the living Mystical Body.

      • Think of a branch that has broken from a tree. It may in some ways resemble the trees (high Anglican) but it is not part of the living organism. It eventually withers and dies.

        The tree, meanwhile, continues to be the tree.

  14. St Maximillian Kolbe stated ” there is no greater enemy of the Immaculata and her Knighthood than today’s ecumenism which every Knight must not only fight against, but also neutralise through diametrically opposed action and ultimately destroy. Reference Nigerian clergy all the ones in this diocese are orthodox and therefore a threat to the ecumenical liberal gay cabal amongst the clergy. One of them explained to me that they receive rigorous physical and psychological evaluation prior to ordination to screen out any potential priests who have homosexual tendencies. On all fronts Catholic Truth just gets better and better. Love and prayers Liam and family

    • Liam,

      You need to stop dishing out the praise – the (rest of the) Catholic Truth team is in danger of becoming conceited. Thankfully, I realised, long ago, the importance of remaining humble…

  15. Chapter XXXV of Iota Unum is entirely about ecumenism, and clearly explains from whence the “thinking” of Francis on this subject derives. Some of Armerio’s points:
    1. “The change in thinking about Christian unity is the most striking that has occurred…since Vatican II, uniting as it does all the elements of that attempted radical change that we have summed up in the phrase loss of essences.
    2. Traditional teaching on this subject is set forth in Mortalium Animos (1928) and an Instruction of 1949 published by the Holy Office.
    3. The VII document Unitatis Redintegratio never mentions the Instruction of 1949. It rejects the idea of a return of separated brethren and adopts the idea of a simultaneous conversion on the part of all Christians. Unity is now brought about by a “conversion of all the churches with the total Christ, a Christ who is not identified with any of them.” (!!)
    4. Cardinal Bea misinterprets Pius XII’s encyclical Mystici Corporis of 1943 – instead of saying that “Protestants are directed towards the Mystical Body” by baptism, Bea said they actually belong to it “and are therefore no worse off than Catholics when it comes to reaching God’s salvation.”
    5. “The assumption that Christian unity is to be sought through the reassembly of pieces, all of them of equal standing, has now complete supplanted the traditional view of the matter.”

    In short, a devastating critique of this aspect of the “French Revolution of the Church.”

  16. The only form of Christian unity that is remotely feasible is with the Orthodox Churches, the Coptic Church, the Armenian Church and the Assyrian Church. They share our beliefs on the Real Presence, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Purgatory, the Seven Sacraments etc., but they reject Papal Primacy, the Filioque, two of the four Marian Dogmas (Assumption and Immaculate Conception), and the latter three etc., reject the Council of Chalcedon and the subsequent Councils along with the Hypostatic Union. I believe that one day there will be an Ecumenical Council involving our Church and the above Churches, and due to the desperate situation in the Middle East, Asia and North Africa they will seek full union with Rome. It reminds me of the years following the Soviet Revolution in 1918-19 when the Russian Orthodox Church was being crucified by the Bolsheviks and the Metropolitans of Omsk and Simbirsk wrote to Pope Benedict XV pleading with him for assistance as the ‘Father of all Christianity’. But note that the full union will only come after the Consecration of Russia.

  17. “They share our beliefs on the Real Presence, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Purgatory, the Seven Sacraments etc.,”

    False. The Orthodox reject Purgatory (a dogma). They have reneged on the early Church’s teaching on marriage, they reject the Assumption of Our Lady.

    • Fair enough I forgot that the Orthodox permit divorce and remarriage up to four times, but again that would be one of the issues resolves in the Ecumenical Council which I mentioned. If you had condescended to read my post in greater detail then you would have noted that I did say that they rejected two of the four Marian dogmas, and in brackets I wrote the Assumption. They refer to it as the Dormition, or falling asleep of Our Lady, and it is not so much that they reject it, but they do not define it, because that believe that the only infallible authority is an Ecumenical Council. The Perpetual Virginity and Divine Maternity were defined by the Councils of Constantinople and Ephesus respectively, whereas the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception were defined later in the 19th and 20th centuries. An Orthodox Priest of my acquaintance told me that you would be considered ‘odd’ if you did not believe in the Dormition. Finally, the Orthodox pray for the dead, and when someone is canonised the Patriarch offers the last Panikhida, or Requiem, signifying the soul’s ascent into Heaven.

    • Some years ago (2009) in Glasgow, we had this AND a statue of Our Lady which was covered in filth – a real piece of (art) work – NOT.

      Yet more evidence of the tolerance and love of “diversity” of the atheist/homosexual community – again NOT!

    • This sort of outrage against Our Lady in Her sacred images, is one of the reasons that She requested us to the First Five Saturday devotion.

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